thoreau wrote:
Eh?

Why?

Because of a 2,000 year old story and a 4,000 year old story of how they killed all the Amalakites to get the land in the first place?

Are you serious?

I think England should be given back to the Welsh on that basis.

amaralsright wrote:
Because people believe it does :p

Its the belief in it that is universal and across all nations and cultures bar a small handful of natives living in remote areas of the planet that no-one gives a shit about...

Power is derived from the mind control of others, specifically lots of others

www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview....=1000752293&fid=1725

^Look at that, a big Israeli company that favours somewhere else over Israel and its teeming with 'jews'.
Pretty obvious why they made that decision and lo and behold they act on it.

andyh wrote:
No, it actually really does.

And it has done for centuries.

Control the medium of exchange and you'll be the top dog.

No complex society can exist without a medium of exchange - the human race became dependent a long long time ago.

amaralsright wrote: How about be completely unsurprised and not so naive in the first place?
The history of conflict is a history of lies.
All war is deception. Sun Tzu

Anyone guilty of the deceptions back then is now long past retribution, so what now?

amaralsright wrote:
Zionism was about a Jewish homeland that didn't necessarily have to be Israel. I seem to recall Uganda was suggested at one point. And as I'm sure we're all aware, there are theological issues within Judiasim about returning to Israel before the advent of the Messiah which, again as I'm sure we're all aware, has led to some hostility about Israel within Judaism.
The idea made sense insofar as Jews having a Jewish state rather than inevitably being a minority group - and this was happening in an era when Europeans turning up in other countries and telling johnny foriegner they were there to stay there wasn't an unusual thing to do or as frowned upon as it is today.

amaralsright wrote:
You start your sentence with 'No' and then re-inforced everything I just said

Except for this bit..

I'll rephrase it for you...No stupid society can exist without a medium of exchange.

amaralsright wrote:
Yes because of their history and religious stories there is a belief that israel or the land it encompasses is their land given to them by god - to discount that does any discussion a disservice.

andyh wrote:
Totally. Money only exists as long as people believe it exists and give it the power it has.

So to answer the OP, "yes it is".

Having just read this thread it seems slightly confused right from the OP.
The Op's answer is Yes. So really that's where the fullstop would logically be......

But then the thread moves on to actually having the discussion, fair enough.
But the discussion seems perhaps deliberately confused.
Is it about the holocaust? Zionism? Banking? I dunno cos it seems like all these separate areas are being treated as one.

Does one need to know or even suspect that the figures for the holocaust were massaged to see that the current state of Israel is an Apartheid state? Or that it is strategically placed to cause friction in a vital area of the world to the Elite's plans? Or that the Israeli state is continually spewing lies? No one doesn't.

Does knowledge or suspicion of holocaust massage do anything to address the situation today with regards to the state of Israel? No it doesn't?
Therefore it seems that it would be best to treat the issues of the holocaust and the current situation as distinct. They are not reliant on eachother. The connection is only of benefit intellectually.

To me, there are two questions here.
1 How and what led to the creation of the State of Israel?
This is an intellectual question, which could be found in a high school exam paper, if we had a proper education system.

2 How do we address the current situation with regard to the State of Israel?
This to me is a much more relevant and pressing question, which could actually be of real world benefit to living breathing humans.

I don't see how the blurring of questions such as these into some kind of blanket topic does anything to help say the Palestinians.... I therefore contend that that is not the objective of such a thread.

dubmeup wrote:
Such is the nature of many forum threads unfortunately, they can end up all over the place so to speak, depending on where contributors take it.

I have been thinking in a similar way about this thread from early in the piece, and the other one about DIF assimilation...they have both become general holocaust threads now...but they did not start out as such....I was actually thinking about splitting them both and putting the posts into a new more specific thread, the thought did cross my mind tbh, but i decided to let them run their course yesterday, as I didnt really want to meddle in chopping up threads that others create...thats up to the OP's and posters I think, to take threads in the direction they wish to take them, and to keep threads in line with the original post and title.

I guess perhaps a better way to go about discussing this, or any other topic tbh, is for posters to begin with more specific titles, and perhaps the OP at the same time, whoever it may be, lay out some objectives or goals they would like to see come out of said thread they create.

Just a thought.

Two very similar threads have changed the feel of this forum dramatically for me.

For the last two days it has started to resemble the dif....I'm pretty sure that I am not the only one thinking this..

dubmeup wrote:
That's an interesting post.

One thing I'd say is that figures for the Holocaust aren't anything to do with Israel anyway. The death toll as we understand it today - somewhere between over five to six million - is the product of ongoing research that will continue to be debated. It doesn't have anything at all to with governments any more than people trying to work out how many people the black death killed or whatever does. And this is spread out - obviously the death camps had big concentrations of killing, but you're looking at mass shootings that happened all over the place. And people also forget that Germans are at the forefront of Holocaust research and there's an awful lot of published you work you can't even get in English.
Also, apart from people feeling sorry for the Jews - though what happened to Jews specifically was not the big deal then it is today - to the extent of even being downplayed - the Jews that were killed were not the issue - they were dead and they weren't coming back. The remaining Jews were the problem as they'd lost ther homes,- it's not like those that weren't bombed or something were left vacant for them - most of them couldn't go back to where they came from even if they could bear to do so and so there was a problem of all these displaced Jews milling about. Really, if so many of them hadn't been killed, you'd simply have had a bigger problem. And this when Europe has been wrecked and you've got everything else to contend with. So unless you'rte going to let them all come and live with you and agree to take all the foreign immigrants that need to go somewhere, where else are you going to shove them? They were already in Israel anyway.

Nothing to do with it helps the Palestinians because that was then and this is now. Most Israelis and Palestinians weren't even born then and it won't be too long before none of them were. You can't change what's happened by trying to rewrite it. I'd suggest most Israelis and most Palestinians are just people trying to get through the day. I don't think most Israelis have anything more to do with what goes down that I did with British troops invading Iraq. God knows how you sort it out, but one way you're not going to sort it out is by going round claiming a bunch of people didn't die over half a century ago.

And that's all I have to say.

I'm don't want to DIF the place, but I also don't want to not respond to interesting posts.

pheony wrote:
Well amaral does seem to have this obesession about this 'topic' (for want of a better word lol) for some bizarre reason

Well, obviously the answer to the OP is "yes" I never mind people wanting to discuss such things, but I tend not to join in. I don't think it's DIF'ing the place, it's just of interest I guess. But I wonder why The Holocaust is only given over to debates about Jews and Israel, etc. The Holocaust was also a time of "cleansing" Germany of Catholics, blacks, disabled people, retarded people, homosexuals, gypsies. Whole swathes of different peoples were popped off, not just Jewish people.

Anyway, that's my piece said and then I'm off!

Just to add: Welcome to you amaralsright and dogsmilk. Enjoy your membership here.

pheony wrote:
From the same OP?

To be fair when I first arrived I was in DIF confrontation mode with every post, I'm gonna give the benefit of the doubt for now. Let the new arrivals get a 'feel' for the place first.

dogsmilk wrote: Absolutely. Trying to get to the truth of something in order to further understanding is perfectly commendable, if that's what you are doing. However as I said, It's largely an intellectual exercise. Whereas the situation presented here and now with regards to the Palestinians, The Lebanon, the wider Middle East and the World as a whole is a humanitarian one that needs urgent attention. In the light of this, the intellect side of it is an indulgence......Perhaps that is actually being too soft on some.
Seemingly, proponents of certain schools of thought may have a vested interest in obscuring this distinction. A Neo-Nazi say, may have an interest in revisionism, for obvious reasons. Not necessarily based on a desire to satisfy the intellect. They may deem it prudent to pledge solidarity with Palestinians or whoever for obvious reasons. Not necessarily humanitarian ones.

You may suggest it and I would agree with it. However The same schools of thought I referred to there ^^^ would seek to draw a direct line between the actions of the State of Israel and the people of Israel. To them, You and I invaded Iraq. That said, the people of Britain elect our government, spend our hard earned and tolerate systems that allow elites to act in opposition to the common good. As do the people of Israel. We cannot deny our responsibility.
I gave one clue as to how we can start to sort it out in the last paragraph

EDIT: as a note to 'the others who are now less other to me', the core subject of this thread appears to be a historical one. The holocaust was 70 or so years ago, so I suggest it is moved to the rather overlooked History section of the forum.

cantata wrote:
Very wise advice indeed.

dubmeup wrote:
Good point.

OP, would you be ok with that?

& what does everyone else think?

I personally think discussion about the holocaust belongs in the history section. There are now 2 threads in general where its being discussed & it isn't doing us any favours. imo.

History section sounds a good idea.

I am so angry with myself for getting caught up in the bullshit yet again - I understand others may wish to discuss such things - maybe one big thread where all things holocaust related can be kept so that threads not intended as holocaust discussions are not further derailed - I hold my hands up at being sucked in myself - but shall be making a conscious effort to avoid from now on - feel free to chastise me if you see me on such threads