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TOPIC: The disappearing work incentive

Re: The disappearing work incentive 13 Jun 2012 11:49 #41

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dubmeup wrote:
dawnbreak wrote:

Does he have any specific areas of interest?

girls and computer games :rofl:

It's hard being a parent and watch your fledging try to fly nest.

I am all for him being his own boss, I freelance.

But alot of it comes down to not only having a good idea but having a little bit of money behind you to get started
Last Edit: 13 Jun 2012 11:50 by dawnbreak.
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Re: The disappearing work incentive 13 Jun 2012 11:54 #42

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There's a BIG market for things that involve girls and computer games Dawn :killinme:

May I suggest something involving "up skirts"?

Yeah a bit of cash for tools and stuff can help, depending on what you're trying to do ofc. I tend to forget that I built up my tools naturally over the years :emb: Starting small is the way for him I think. What's the dole for a chap of his age? Close to fek all I bet. So he wouldn't need to get much coming in to be as well off in the short term...
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Re: The disappearing work incentive 13 Jun 2012 12:04 #43

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dawnbreak wrote:
i do worry because my son is coming to the end of his further education and does not have the slightest scoobie what he wants to do

He may have to 'sign on' and claim Jobseekers come July.

He is applying for jobs left right and centre , but nothing is happening.

He has a casual job in his uncles cafe but has already said he hates working for people and wants to his own boss.

I didn't end up in a career as such or have any inkling of what I was going to do until around 30 Dawn.
I really wouldn't worry about it, the fact he doesn't know or better still doesn't want to pick anything is a sign he is actually normal :)
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Re: The disappearing work incentive 13 Jun 2012 12:05 #44

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Think it's about £50 a week , but not sure
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Re: The disappearing work incentive 13 Jun 2012 12:06 #45

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dawnbreak wrote:
But alot of it comes down to not only having a good idea but having a little bit of money behind you to get started

Skills which might cost very little indeed can be all thats required to start. IT contracting for example can be as simple as responding to an advertised short term contract position. No business set up funds required :)
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Re: The disappearing work incentive 13 Jun 2012 12:20 #46

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Yes andy, A few years ago I responded to an invite to tender from the local council. They were setting up one of the country's first council handyman services. Put in my tender and got the contract. Simple, a grand a month for an average 70 hours. Not too shabby.

Loved it too until I realised being on your own in a house with shall I say, vulnerable people, was not without risk. And until the council kept pushing me to go against Part P regulations.....Bye bye tossers, bye bye.
Last Edit: 13 Jun 2012 12:21 by dubs.
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Re: The disappearing work incentive 13 Jun 2012 12:59 #47

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Send him to me for a week with one weeks dole money and I will show him how to make shoes the propper way.

I am also a woodturner and cabinet maker and silversmith.

With leather work skills you can add the vocabulary to a plethora of other uses, there is making the tools to using an antique sewing machine to cordmaking.

There you go a working holiday in the beautiful Yorkshire Dales.

No Tv though just jobs in hand.
dawnbreak wrote:
i do worry because my son is coming to the end of his further education and does not have the slightest scoobie what he wants to do

He may have to 'sign on' and claim Jobseekers come July.

He is applying for jobs left right and centre , but nothing is happening.

He has a casual job in his uncles cafe but has already said he hates working for people and wants to his own boss.
.
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Re: The disappearing work incentive 13 Jun 2012 13:03 #48

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*The app goes workfare :D*
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Re: The disappearing work incentive 13 Jun 2012 17:03 #49

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ESRI PULLS REPORT DUE TO DOUBT ABOUT THE ACCURACY OF ANALYSIS. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Well that didn,t last long :chuckle: . How much money did that inaccurate report cost.

There is no doubt that the system is set up to create lords out of the businessmen, over the new serfs, the unemployed. Businessmen can now employ an unemployed professional for 50 euro plus his dole money, and the government pays the extra 50 euro as far as I know, but I,m open to correction on this..As such the new slaves with little or no disposable income, will soon be joined by the businessman as well, as there is no money to purchase his wares, as the manufacturing base has done a hop skip and jump eastwards. So slavery is on the cards for all. And if you come from an academic background, you will feel the pain moreso unless you supplement your skillset, with things that will enable some level of self sufficiency at least. I mean in the hard times ahead, people wont be looking for the skills of an academic, they would more likely be looking for a hands on individual. And if you are an academic with loads of wedge, thinking that will see you through. It wont who wants fiat, as at that stage it would only be useful for bog roll, on second thoughts its too shiny for that.

So unless you can grow it, catch it, kill it, or cook it. I,d say most will be proper f..ked turkish,

gris
www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/esri-pulls...ch-paper-197161.html

ESRI pulls research paper
By Conor Ryan

Wednesday, June 13, 2012

A supposedly sensational piece of research published by the ESRI has been withdrawn after doubts were raised about the accuracy of its analysis.

The working paper had suggested the daily expense incurred by working people with children meant that 44% of them would be better off on social welfare.

However, the ESRI said it had taken the "unprecedented" step of withdrawing the document as it required major revision.

The paper, The Costs of Working in Ireland, was written by ex-ESRI professor Richard Tol. It had been available on the institute’s website for two weeks.

"The decision to withdraw the paper has been made as it has emerged that the underlying analysis requires major revision and that the paper’s estimates overstate the numbers of people who would be better off on the dole than in work," the ESRI said.

"The institute has taken the unprecedented step of withdrawing the paper because of its concern that the public could be misled by its content. The institute understands that Prof Tol is planning to revise the working paper."

The institute said its working papers were un-refereed pieces of analysis and remained the responsibility of the researchers.

The paper received a lot of publicity on radio and TV yesterday. It was reported that Prof Tol, now based at the University of Sussex, stood over the work and would publish it elsewhere. He was on holiday and unaware that the ESRI had withdrawn the paper.

The paper said having one child under the age of five led to additional costs and brought down the value of a salary by €9,000. It said this led to a situation where the welfare system encouraged a significant portion of people not to work.

"These substantial additional costs seriously hamper work incentives, as it is shown that there is a 25-fold increase [without young children] in the number of individuals who have a higher income when unemployed than when in employment with the inclusion of these additional costs of working," the paper said.

Earlier, Sinn Féin had called on the ESRI to distance itself from the work as it "attacked" people on the social welfare system.

griswald
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Re: The disappearing work incentive 13 Jun 2012 17:20 #50

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Griswald wrote:
So unless you can grow it, catch it, kill it, or cook it. I,d say most will be proper f..ked turkish,

Well sigworthy :D
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Re: The disappearing work incentive 13 Jun 2012 17:29 #51

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dubmeup wrote:
Griswald wrote:
So unless you can grow it, catch it, kill it, or cook it. I,d say most will be proper f..ked turkish,

Well sigworthy :D

Of course steal it is another option :D
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Re: The disappearing work incentive 13 Jun 2012 18:12 #52

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Griswald wrote:

Of course steal it is another option :D
I prefer to get permission :D You know what psketti's like ;)
Last Edit: 13 Jun 2012 18:13 by dubs.
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Re: The disappearing work incentive 13 Jun 2012 18:20 #53

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Hahaha funny but a nice one.

That cash would be for feeding him whilst learning to fill a different high shelf and at the end of play he could walk tall in shoes made in his eyes, not many reading this post are doing that right this minuite.

And on exit the knowledge and tooling to do it again, quite a few have already achieved this task ;)

It ain't what you do its the way that you do it that gets results.


dubmeup wrote:
*The app goes workfare :D*
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Re: The disappearing work incentive 13 Jun 2012 18:24 #54

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This thread does raise an interesting point.

Are people more dis-incentivised (sp?) to work in 2012 than say 1982?
Last Edit: 13 Jun 2012 18:25 by dubs.
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Re: The disappearing work incentive 13 Jun 2012 19:30 #55

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Griswald wrote:
ESRI PULLS REPORT DUE TO DOUBT ABOUT THE ACCURACY OF ANALYSIS. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Well that didn,t last long :chuckle: . How much money did that inaccurate report cost.

There is no doubt that the system is set up to create lords out of the businessmen, over the new serfs, the unemployed. Businessmen can now employ an unemployed professional for 50 euro plus his dole money, and the government pays the extra 50 euro as far as I know, but I,m open to correction on this..As such the new slaves with little or no disposable income, will soon be joined by the businessman as well, as there is no money to purchase his wares, as the manufacturing base has done a hop skip and jump eastwards. So slavery is on the cards for all. And if you come from an academic background, you will feel the pain moreso unless you supplement your skillset, with things that will enable some level of self sufficiency at least. I mean in the hard times ahead, people wont be looking for the skills of an academic, they would more likely be looking for a hands on individual. And if you are an academic with loads of wedge, thinking that will see you through. It wont who wants fiat, as at that stage it would only be useful for bog roll, on second thoughts its too shiny for that.

So unless you can grow it, catch it, kill it, or cook it. I,d say most will be proper f..ked turkish,

gris
www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/esri-pulls...ch-paper-197161.html

ESRI pulls research paper
By Conor Ryan

Wednesday, June 13, 2012

A supposedly sensational piece of research published by the ESRI has been withdrawn after doubts were raised about the accuracy of its analysis.

The working paper had suggested the daily expense incurred by working people with children meant that 44% of them would be better off on social welfare.

However, the ESRI said it had taken the "unprecedented" step of withdrawing the document as it required major revision.

The paper, The Costs of Working in Ireland, was written by ex-ESRI professor Richard Tol. It had been available on the institute’s website for two weeks.

"The decision to withdraw the paper has been made as it has emerged that the underlying analysis requires major revision and that the paper’s estimates overstate the numbers of people who would be better off on the dole than in work," the ESRI said.

"The institute has taken the unprecedented step of withdrawing the paper because of its concern that the public could be misled by its content. The institute understands that Prof Tol is planning to revise the working paper."

The institute said its working papers were un-refereed pieces of analysis and remained the responsibility of the researchers.

The paper received a lot of publicity on radio and TV yesterday. It was reported that Prof Tol, now based at the University of Sussex, stood over the work and would publish it elsewhere. He was on holiday and unaware that the ESRI had withdrawn the paper.

The paper said having one child under the age of five led to additional costs and brought down the value of a salary by €9,000. It said this led to a situation where the welfare system encouraged a significant portion of people not to work.

"These substantial additional costs seriously hamper work incentives, as it is shown that there is a 25-fold increase [without young children] in the number of individuals who have a higher income when unemployed than when in employment with the inclusion of these additional costs of working," the paper said.

Earlier, Sinn Féin had called on the ESRI to distance itself from the work as it "attacked" people on the social welfare system.

griswald

I'm not surprised they've 'pulled' it as its quite truthful for the income bracket and situation I mentioned :)

Whats the point in driving 50 or 60 miles into work with a missus and kids to pay for if you only earn 30k?

Its not welfare thats the problem its the wages. And ofc no business is going to pay decent wages, not when they have directors million quid bonuses to pay on top of million quid salaries.
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Re: The disappearing work incentive 13 Jun 2012 19:33 #56

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dubmeup wrote:
This thread does raise an interesting point.

Are people more dis-incentivised (sp?) to work in 2012 than say 1982?

Absolutely because the purchasing power of the average joe is pointless now because the average joe is becoming surplus to requirements. They drive for ever more efficiency of profit, low skilled jobs just aint needed now.

Ofc 'I' will find myself far far better off working than on the dole, but then again I don't earn 30k ffs lol.
Nor for that matter am I 'unskilled labor'....but there are plenty of people who ARE in that bracket which is why that report is so sensitive.
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Re: The disappearing work incentive 14 Jun 2012 08:57 #57

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andyh wrote:
dubmeup wrote:
This thread does raise an interesting point.

Are people more dis-incentivised (sp?) to work in 2012 than say 1982?

Absolutely because the purchasing power of the average joe is pointless now because the average joe is becoming surplus to requirements. They drive for ever more efficiency of profit, low skilled jobs just aint needed now.

Ofc 'I' will find myself far far better off working than on the dole, but then again I don't earn 30k ffs lol.
Nor for that matter am I 'unskilled labor'....but there are plenty of people who ARE in that bracket which is why that report is so sensitive.

Real question is, when the whole system collapses, which it will in my opinion, and there is no dole money for anyone, and business's are gone, so the ordinary low calibre businessman has no money either..................will you be able to survive. I will because I have done the necessary of knowing and using the skills to feed my self ect, so as not to need outside assistance. If you have not, then you are going to feel the pain. You are feeling some of it now, as you are ranting and raving about taxes, cuts, ect,ect. But this is only a amall taste of what lies ahead of you. Unless you get into gear, you are all aboard the ship thats going down, and she is going down faster than the titanic, and the anchor hasn't hit the bottom yet, let alone the ship.

griswald,
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Re: The disappearing work incentive 14 Jun 2012 09:20 #58

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andyh wrote:
Griswald wrote:
ESRI PULLS REPORT DUE TO DOUBT ABOUT THE ACCURACY OF ANALYSIS. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Well that didn,t last long :chuckle: . How much money did that inaccurate report cost.

There is no doubt that the system is set up to create lords out of the businessmen, over the new serfs, the unemployed. Businessmen can now employ an unemployed professional for 50 euro plus his dole money, and the government pays the extra 50 euro as far as I know, but I,m open to correction on this..As such the new slaves with little or no disposable income, will soon be joined by the businessman as well, as there is no money to purchase his wares, as the manufacturing base has done a hop skip and jump eastwards. So slavery is on the cards for all. And if you come from an academic background, you will feel the pain moreso unless you supplement your skillset, with things that will enable some level of self sufficiency at least. I mean in the hard times ahead, people wont be looking for the skills of an academic, they would more likely be looking for a hands on individual. And if you are an academic with loads of wedge, thinking that will see you through. It wont who wants fiat, as at that stage it would only be useful for bog roll, on second thoughts its too shiny for that.

So unless you can grow it, catch it, kill it, or cook it. I,d say most will be proper f..ked turkish,

gris
www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/esri-pulls...ch-paper-197161.html

ESRI pulls research paper
By Conor Ryan

Wednesday, June 13, 2012

A supposedly sensational piece of research published by the ESRI has been withdrawn after doubts were raised about the accuracy of its analysis.

The working paper had suggested the daily expense incurred by working people with children meant that 44% of them would be better off on social welfare.

However, the ESRI said it had taken the "unprecedented" step of withdrawing the document as it required major revision.

The paper, The Costs of Working in Ireland, was written by ex-ESRI professor Richard Tol. It had been available on the institute’s website for two weeks.

"The decision to withdraw the paper has been made as it has emerged that the underlying analysis requires major revision and that the paper’s estimates overstate the numbers of people who would be better off on the dole than in work," the ESRI said.

"The institute has taken the unprecedented step of withdrawing the paper because of its concern that the public could be misled by its content. The institute understands that Prof Tol is planning to revise the working paper."

The institute said its working papers were un-refereed pieces of analysis and remained the responsibility of the researchers.

The paper received a lot of publicity on radio and TV yesterday. It was reported that Prof Tol, now based at the University of Sussex, stood over the work and would publish it elsewhere. He was on holiday and unaware that the ESRI had withdrawn the paper.

The paper said having one child under the age of five led to additional costs and brought down the value of a salary by €9,000. It said this led to a situation where the welfare system encouraged a significant portion of people not to work.

"These substantial additional costs seriously hamper work incentives, as it is shown that there is a 25-fold increase [without young children] in the number of individuals who have a higher income when unemployed than when in employment with the inclusion of these additional costs of working," the paper said.

Earlier, Sinn Féin had called on the ESRI to distance itself from the work as it "attacked" people on the social welfare system.

griswald

I'm not surprised they've 'pulled' it as its quite truthful for the income bracket and situation I mentioned :)

Whats the point in driving 50 or 60 miles into work with a missus and kids to pay for if you only earn 30k?

Its not welfare thats the problem its the wages. And ofc no business is going to pay decent wages, not when they have directors million quid bonuses to pay on top of million quid salaries.

I,m not surprised they've pulled it either, as he admits himself that there are serious issues with the data used :) Apart from the fact the data was from cso reports 6 years old.
www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0613/breaking21.html

The author of a report which found that a high proportion of Irish people with children would be better off on the dole than in employment has defended the “bottom-line” conclusion of his work.

Richard Tol, who is now a professor at Sussex University but formerly of the ESRI, said he used two separate sets of CSO data in the paper entitled The Costs of Working in Ireland.

He said while the paper was not formally reviewed ahead of publication “a number of people have looked at the paper, including a number of senior people at the ESRI”.

The ESRI said last night the paper had been removed from its website over concerns the public “could be misled by its content”.

Speaking this morning, Prof Tol defended the methodology used in his research.

“I have absolutely no problem with my professionalism here. You may say something about the ESRI’s professionalism, but not mine,” he told RTÉ.

There are of course still serious issues with the data because in Ireland there is no real data set that really goes to the heart of this so we had to combine two data sets that were collected for different purposes but as far as I know we did that correctly.”

He said that following a revision, the University of Sussex may publish the paper. “We are currently revising the flow of the paper but have no reason to change the conclusions. It will probably be published as a working paper of the University of Sussex and resubmitted.”
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Re: The disappearing work incentive 14 Jun 2012 09:25 #59

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Griswald wrote:
andyh wrote:
dubmeup wrote:
This thread does raise an interesting point.

Are people more dis-incentivised (sp?) to work in 2012 than say 1982?

Absolutely because the purchasing power of the average joe is pointless now because the average joe is becoming surplus to requirements. They drive for ever more efficiency of profit, low skilled jobs just aint needed now.

Ofc 'I' will find myself far far better off working than on the dole, but then again I don't earn 30k ffs lol.
Nor for that matter am I 'unskilled labor'....but there are plenty of people who ARE in that bracket which is why that report is so sensitive.

Real question is, when the whole system collapses, which it will in my opinion, and there is no dole money for anyone, and business's are gone, so the ordinary low calibre businessman has no money either..................will you be able to survive. I will because I have done the necessary of knowing and using the skills to feed my self ect, so as not to need outside assistance. If you have not, then you are going to feel the pain. You are feeling some of it now, as you are ranting and raving about taxes, cuts, ect,ect. But this is only a amall taste of what lies ahead of you. Unless you get into gear, you are all aboard the ship thats going down, and she is going down faster than the titanic, and the anchor hasn't hit the bottom yet, let alone the ship.

griswald,

I've managed to significantly reduce my dependence on others but not to eliminate it.
Such a thing isn't poss unless you own a farm and have invested tens of thousands in it in the way of power production etc.
Even then, total independence is a tall order...
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Re: The disappearing work incentive 14 Jun 2012 09:29 #60

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Griswald wrote:

I,m not surprised they've pulled it either, as he admits himself that there are serious issues with the data used :) Apart from the fact the data was from cso reports 6 years old.

And whats happened to the price of fuel in 6 years?
Or food or power or taxes? Did wages shoot up to cover it?

Its inaccurate alright....
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