dubmeup wrote:
it would not seem unconnected that the decision by admin to upsticks appears to have coincided with some rather passionate debate about how the sz deals with issues like development, moderation, polls etc, a week or two back.
Contrary to popular belief we the admins don't sit about plotting, planning or implementing schemes to take over the world, not even the little bit of the world that the SZ takes up! Novum and I generally only discuss tech issues and site development which includes how we can improve things for the community as a whole. DG and I virtually never communicate unless there is some issue with funding or account issues. The vast majority of communications between us about community issues have been in the admin area and the current and ex mods are privy to those discussions. When I speak I speak as myself period and I more often than not am a loan voice on many issues. The exception to that is when we came to the decision to open the new site which came about through an evolution of our individual thought processes. I can't tell you exactly how either DG and Novum came to their decisions.
The common ground that we all share is our commitment to the individual members here past and present. We have been as open and honest as is humanly possible and have never acted against the community or individuals in a negative way. When acting as administrators we are professional in our approach and take it seriously and not personally. Whether people accept that really doesn't interest me because those are the facts.
As for me personally I have been set to go for months but I have a responsibility with respect to the management of the site and the community. I actually stated in the admin area that I was off approximately a month ago which Psketti can verify should by word be doubted.
I didn't leave at that point I stepped back from forum activity and simply maintained the site. I have had very little input on the forum beyond responding to some of the more tech related questions of members and the odd post here and there. I tend to read more than I respond. The long and the short of it is the vibe here has changed to such an extent that I no longer feel I can be apart of it. If I were not maintaining the site I would have walked a while ago. There were high points in the early days when the community was pulling together and for the most part people were respectful of others...to my mind that is no longer the case. I should point out that that isn't a reflection on the vast majority of members past, present or inactive! There are a minority of people who speak to people with utter contempt in a manor and tone I personally cant stomach. It's the only thing I disliked over at the DIF apart from the management by Sean and the hypocrisy of the rules. I don't and cant condone that sort of activity and as an administrator here I feel personally responsible for allowing people to speak to others with total disrespect, which is generally backed by nothing more than personal opinion. It's quite easy to disagree with someone or call them out without releasing bile and venom! It's common knowledge that we don't see eye to eye yet we can be civil and business like. It appears others can't find that balance!
My original hopes were that the community would moderate itself with respect to posters who act with total disregard for other members and the community as a whole. Evidently I was wrong in that respect. A discerning reader can see examples of the attitude I'm referring to in this thread although the majority of contributors would not be encompassed.
Which brings me to the elements contained in the quote above. Those issues were probably contributory to my final decision to call it a day. The fact is my decision came about as a result of compounding issued over a period of time, so highlighting one or two incidents as a primary cause is totally unrealistic.
My personal view is that the SZ has not developed in keeping with my personal objectives which were on the table at the inception of the sites creation. The primary goal for me was to help establish a site which was inclusive not exclusive, where anyone could feel comfortable to post their views regardless of the views they hold. Ideally a place where members show mutual respect for the other members where discussions are free from bullying, snide comments, immature and pointless contributions where the topic is of a serious nature. That's not to say that trivial and lighthearted banter was not part of the goal. The point is members should have the ability to determine where banter is used and not use it to conceal other motives/agendas etc. The reality is that a tiny minority of people don't seem to have that ability which drags everyone else down.
Obviously I had to break the news to DG and Novum about my decision to call it a day. At which point they question me as to why I was leaving. That's the point where we discussed creating an alternative site. They clearly shared some of the concerns I had and we discussed different ways of approaching it. None of us want to cause any damage to the SZ we want it to continue to evolve. The problem we faced was that it wasn't/isn't meeting our original concept which as stated was intended to be inclusive with a good vibe. We have achieved that in the past...on a few occasions this place was buzzing and really started to look like we were achieving what we had set out to achieve - only to watch it get knocked back time and again for one reason or another.
As admins we are obviously aware of site activity and privy to information and data which users are not. We had to deal with setting people inactive and read their comments in their closing PM's or emails. We have sat by and watch many good members close the door on the SZ, which is extremely disappointing when you have spent months (often with no sleep) working to create an environment where people could feel at ease - only to see that you have failed in a number of cases. Quite often departing members had positive things to say about many aspects of the community and how things were managed. I could totally get where they were coming from because I would have felt the same in their shoes. In fact my decision to leave was for much the same reasons as many who have left before me. I have nothing but respect for the vast majority of members and have tried to stick it out in support of them as well as DG and Novum. I just couldn't hold out any longer for my own sanity as much as anything else.
as i currently understand it, the 3 members have decided that they would like a more traditional forum with top down control. fair play to them then for realising this cant happen at the sz and going elsewhere to do things the way they prefer.
It has nothing to do with control, it has to do with creating an environment and an atmosphere where people can chat in a place where mutual respect is afforded to all comers! That evidently can't be achieved under the model we established for the SZ. Not for the lack of trying!
The reality is the time and effort required to keep up and maintain a site like this is significant and requires a large amount of time and effort. There seems to be a core of dedicated SZ members who are more than happy with everything SZ has to offer. They have been quite vocal in stating how things can and should be done. Which is cool as far as I'm concerned they can continue to develop the SZ community in the way they see fit.
When the three of us decided to start the TZ we put a lot of thought into how the SZ could be maintained. DG was even prepared to keep funding it in the event that funding became an issue. I was prepared to do security related maintenance while it was practical. Novum is happy to help bring the new forum administrator up to speed. At no point have we neglected our responsibilities here. I have continued to work on the site as you know I spent time sorting out the Mobile access while I was developing the new site.
What we would have preferred would have been to retain the vibe of the early days and to retain those members who no longer felt at home here. That's what we are hoping to achieve by creating the Truth Zone and that is the motivation behind it. Your right we do realise that can't be achieved here as has been demonstrated. The proposal for opening the forum to guest access would be but one point in support of that. That would be an example of us trying to build the community and taking a proactive approach in response to information available to us. That's not the reason for our decision although it is contributory. And for the record I wasn't in favour of the guest posting and I raised the proposal of removing the Karma. As Novum has said elsewhere we initially intended to have guest posting active on the site. We didn't do that originally because it couldn't be restricted to a sub forum and that's why we had/have the guest posting active in the Blast Chat. Part of the remit when we setup was an open door policy!
those that stay as contributors and members of the sz now have the task of sorting out how community led management can be acheived. in some ways that will now be easier because those who just dont think it can work wont be involved. they now have the tz to contribute to.
By those who don't think it can work you would be referring to the three of us I assume? The three people who actually set out to achieve a community lead website which hoped to form a consensus. So far it clearly doesn't work because we failed to deliver even though we put everything in place. You do realise that the very first issue the community were involved in is still as yet unresolved? The community has never provided any alternative amendments to the rules re copyright etc. The reality is someone eventually needs to make a decision or nothing will happen! Someone else will leave it to someone else and nobody knows who that someone is. Already in this thread people are talking about changing the rules and how policies should be made. It very easy for people to sit back with a beer and theorize about some unattainable philosophy/ideology. The problem is people are diverse - opinionated, passive, aggressive, apathetic, enthusiastic, honest, corrupt, active and lazy etc. hardly conducive to forming a real consensus - Regardless of how admirable that aspiration maybe. It maybe attainable within a domestic setting with 2.5 kids two cats and a dog but in the real world on a large scale it's an unrealistic aspiration. With a membership of only 200 of relatively like minded people we didn't even come close and this environment is virtual. Scale that up by a couple of K and think about it - you would be insane if you expected to achieve a real and sustainable consensus.
Making the choices we have made hasn't been easy or taken lightly. We have had to put in a lot of work here to establish the SZ as well as the TZ. I/we would like to see them both become established communities where people can find what they are looking for.
The key to this is choice and we believe that people should have a choice in where they hang their hat. If people don't get what we are about and why we have made the choices we have made then they won't support us. If they share our views and aspire to achieving a community built on mutual respect then I guess they will take the time to join us. The point is we can build on what we have and we also hope to regain some of what we have lost. We haven't imported any account details from existing members of the SZ, one because we respect their right to chose and two we wouldn't presume anyone would wish to join us, although they will be informed and given the opportunity to visit the TZ, no one is expected to join although they are most welcome to do so should they wish.
i suggest we promptly get to addressing the 2 practicalities that need immediate attention.
funding
tech
There should be three items on your priority list who is going to be responsible?
This situation should be seen as an opportunity for members to create the community that they want to be apart of. That isn't to say that they are required to be exclusive members of one or the other. The SZ was never intended to be the only website people use - it was supposed to be a safe haven where people can find sanctity on the crazy world wide web.
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