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TOPIC: The European Union

The European Union 23 Aug 2012 17:46 #1

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A few facts to start the thread off..
The E.U. now takes precedence over the Queen of England and the Government is rewriting oaths of allegiance. Policemen, members of the armed forces and civil servants will swear oaths of allegiance to the E.U.

The UK Government is trying to abolish trial by jury in England. They are doing this because the E.U. has told them they must.

Members of Europol (Europe's new official police force) are armed and `immune from the law'.

The E.U. keeps files on people who might one day be suspected of doing something contrary to E.U. law. The E.U. keeps at least 56 different types of information about each suspect (including racial origins, religion and political affiliations).

England's oil reserves were worth over £250 billion. The E.U. now regards those reserves as a `shared E.U. resource'

The Government has handed England's £32 billion worth of gold and dollar reserves over to the E.U.

The number of laws created by the E.U.'s bureaucrats in Brussels far exceeds the number of laws passed by England's parliament in its first 700 years.

The European Court of Justice now has the authority to overturn laws made by the English parliament, and verdicts delivered by English courts. European courts and laws now take precedence over English courts and laws.

The E.U. spends over £1 billion a year supporting the production of poor quality tobacco - which is too poisonous for sale in the E.U. but which must be `dumped' on undeveloped countries. Many Greek, Spanish and French farmers exist on these tobacco grants.

(courtesy of Vernon Coleman)
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Last Edit: 23 Aug 2012 17:47 by diamondgeezer.
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Re: The European Union 23 Aug 2012 17:55 #2

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Best get rid of the pesky system of representative democracy which elects the Governments that signed/sign the treaties and agreements which hand over power to the EU then eh DG :D

IF there was a referendum today, what do we think the answer would be on membership of the EU from the Brits? Assuming there was a fair turn out.
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Re: The European Union 23 Aug 2012 18:13 #3

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dubmeup wrote:
Best get rid of the pesky system of representative democracy which elects the Governments that signed/sign the treaties and agreements which hand over power to the EU then eh DG :D

No need to 'get rid' of representative democracy dubs...its already defunct.

(The people were lied to by their elected 'representatives' about what the EU was really all about btw)
IF there was a ref­er­en­dum today, what do we think the answer would be on mem­ber­ship of the EU from the Brits? Assum­ing there was a fair turn out.

A resounding ''NO'' I'd say. However, as we're not going to be having a referendum any time soon, its a moot point :gleek:
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Re: The European Union 23 Aug 2012 18:18 #4

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My point is DG that RD was always defunct. Not fit for purpose.

The reason I mentioned a referendum is because like you I think the Brits would overwhelmingly vote no. Which would make a mockery of those democratically elected representatives continuing to support and add to, the treaties which hand 'power' to the Eurocrats.

You seem to be an advocate of not giving sovereignty and power to the EU, would that be fair?
I agree, except I would like to take it further. I am advocating taking sovereignty and power back from Whitehall too.
The fact that it's Whitehall that keeps us in the EU would be a good reason for that I'd say personally ;)
Last Edit: 23 Aug 2012 18:56 by dubs.
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Re: The European Union 23 Aug 2012 18:38 #5

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dubmeup wrote:
You seem to be an advocate of not giving sovereignty and power to the EU, would that be fair?

It most certainly would ;)
I agree, except I would like to take it fur­ther. I am advo­cat­ing tak­ing sov­er­eignty and power back from White­hall too.
The fact that it’s White­hall that keeps us in the EU would be a good rea­son for that I’d say per­son­ally ;)

I'd buy that for a dollar (or should I say euro? :roll: ). Thing is, Whitehall doesn't actually keep us in the EU anymore...it no longer has a say in the matter.

It is now literally 'illegal' for England to attempt to withdraw from the EU...
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Re: The European Union 23 Aug 2012 18:48 #6

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dubmeup wrote:
Best get rid of the pesky system of representative democracy which elects the Governments that signed/sign the treaties and agreements which hand over power to the EU then eh DG :D

IF there was a referendum today, what do we think the answer would be on membership of the EU from the Brits? Assuming there was a fair turn out.

They'll have a referendum on the EU when they have Diebold ™
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Re: The European Union 23 Aug 2012 18:53 #7

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diamondgeezer wrote:
It is now literally 'illegal' for England to attempt to withdraw from the EU...

I don't think we'd be worrying about that too much in the event of what I was on about. Which is the only way I can see Britain breaking free absent the collapse of the EU
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Re: The European Union 23 Aug 2012 19:06 #8

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The collapse of the Euro has nothing to do with the collapse of the EU btw.

Although I know a hell of a lot of brits whose only concern is that they don't use the euro and as long as that doesn't happen then its OK and somehow they are not a part of it.
Sigh... :facepalm:
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Re: The European Union 23 Aug 2012 19:42 #9

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The col­lapse of the Euro has noth­ing to do with the col­lapse of the EU btw.

Indeed.
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Re: The European Union 23 Aug 2012 20:03 #10

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Did that really need stating Andy :D
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Re: The European Union 23 Aug 2012 20:12 #11

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Just to clarify....if anyone has a complaint about anything that they wish to bring to the attention of their unelected 'leaders'...well its really uncomplicated...honest.. :roll:
Governance

The European Union has seven institutions: the European Parliament, the Council of the European Union, the European Commission, the European Council, the European Central Bank, the Court of Justice of the European Union and the European Court of Auditors. Competencies in scrutinising and amending legislation are divided between the European Parliament and the Council of the European Union while executive tasks are carried out by the European Commission and in a limited capacity by the European Council (not to be confused with the aforementioned Council of the European Union). The monetary policy of the eurozone is governed by the European Central Bank. The interpretation and the application of EU law and the treaties are ensured by the Court of Justice of the European Union. The EU budget is scrutinised by the European Court of Auditors. There are also a number of ancillary bodies which advise the EU or operate in a specific area.
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Re: The European Union 23 Aug 2012 20:13 #12

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The E.U. now takes prece­dence over the Queen of Eng­land and the Gov­ern­ment is rewrit­ing oaths of alle­giance. Police­men, mem­bers of the armed forces and civil ser­vants will swear oaths of alle­giance to the E.U.
Whoever wrote that says it like it's a bad thing, a political Union taking precedence of the "Queen" is at least some progress, do you not agree?

Don't get me wrong personally I agree with everyone here about the current shape of the EU, it's un-democratic, what I am interested in is the framework it has created for a unified Europe, which could be a good thing i think you'd agree?

It worked well for the UK for many centuries.

The best book on the development of the "Vatican Pan-European Movement"/EU I've read is David Teacher's Rogue Agents, highly informative definitely worth a read¬!
As readers may know, I dusted off Rogue Agents, my 1993 book on Brian Crozier and the Pinay Circle, for Joel van der Reijden of the much-missed ISGP site, which published the second edition in December 2008.

I have now completed the third and final edition which adds much information on Franco's Spain, Interdoc, and Crozier's allies in the Rumsfeld Pentagon and in the UK Cameron government (and their current activities), and brings all the biographies up to date - 2011 has so far seen the deaths of key players Otto von Habsburg, Hans Graf Huyn and Brigadier-General Robert C. Richardson.

The third edition of Rogue Agents also includes all of the internal documents used in the course of this twenty-year investigation; in this way, readers may recognize some of the names that as yet mean nothing to me. Pictures of the main actors in the Cercle and weblinks to video footage of them round off the book.

Sadly ISGP cannot host the new edition, and therefore I post it here, hoping that Joel and others may find it. Two versions of Rogue Agents are available: the full version with pictures and documents (481 pages, 40 MB pdf file) or the 'text-only version' which includes the full book, footnotes, sources annex and NSIC and IFF annexes, but omits the pictures and the documents (290 pages, 1.3 MB pdf file, best for printing or emailing).

The full version is here:

mediafire.com/?2qvkx4nvdj9zyk6

The 'text-only'version is here:

mediafire.com/?46yvpnyg5y0stdp

If you find this, Joel, happy reading and thanks again for hosting earlier versions of this research.

Feel free to submit the book to other sites or blogs!

David Teacher
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
Last Edit: 23 Aug 2012 20:45 by Guevarista.
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Re: The European Union 23 Aug 2012 20:45 #13

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Guevarista wrote:
The E.U. now takes prece­dence over the Queen of Eng­land and the Gov­ern­ment is rewrit­ing oaths of alle­giance. Police­men, mem­bers of the armed forces and civil ser­vants will swear oaths of alle­giance to the E.U.
Whoever wrote that says it like it's a bad thing, a political Union taking precedence of the "Queen" is at least some progress, do you not agree?

No I don't agree, because the 'political Union' in question is even less answerable to us than the queen is, fact.
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Last Edit: 23 Aug 2012 20:49 by diamondgeezer.
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Re: The European Union 23 Aug 2012 20:50 #14

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diamondgeezer wrote:
Guevarista wrote:
The E.U. now takes prece­dence over the Queen of Eng­land and the Gov­ern­ment is rewrit­ing oaths of alle­giance. Police­men, mem­bers of the armed forces and civil ser­vants will swear oaths of alle­giance to the E.U.
Whoever wrote that says it like it's a bad thing, a political Union taking precedence of the "Queen" is at least some progress, do you not agree?
Hi DG sorry, I edited my post, I do agree with you but the idea of a political union having more power than a Divine monarch, in principle is progress imo.
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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Re: The European Union 23 Aug 2012 20:55 #15

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diamondgeezer wrote:
Just to clarify....if anyone has a complaint about anything that they wish to bring to the attention of their unelected 'leaders'...well its really uncomplicated...honest.. :roll:
Governance

The European Union has seven institutions: the European Parliament, the Council of the European Union, the European Commission, the European Council, the European Central Bank, the Court of Justice of the European Union and the European Court of Auditors. Competencies in scrutinising and amending legislation are divided between the European Parliament and the Council of the European Union while executive tasks are carried out by the European Commission and in a limited capacity by the European Council (not to be confused with the aforementioned Council of the European Union). The monetary policy of the eurozone is governed by the European Central Bank. The interpretation and the application of EU law and the treaties are ensured by the Court of Justice of the European Union. The EU budget is scrutinised by the European Court of Auditors. There are also a number of ancillary bodies which advise the EU or operate in a specific area.
I think there have been people charged with Cannabis offenses in this country taking their cases to Europe, I don't think they've had anything overturned yet, Julian Assange could use appeal to the EU Court of Human rights if he looses his next appeal, there are countless people in member states making use of the EU legislation, you could bring a court case against your own government and have it viewed by impartial judges which formerly wouldn't have been the case.. You can keep focusing on the negatives or become aware of how this could be a beneficial union in transcending national boundaries or averting any future European wars.
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
Last Edit: 23 Aug 2012 20:57 by Guevarista.
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Re: The European Union 23 Aug 2012 21:08 #16

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You can keep focus­ing on the neg­a­tives or become aware of how this could be a ben­e­fi­cial union in tran­scend­ing national bound­aries or avert­ing any future Euro­pean wars.

2 possible positives to this undemocratic federal european superstate you've pointed out there...just 2...and they are about the only possible positives...

Many many more negatives however, so I think its best I keep focusing on them.
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Re: The European Union 23 Aug 2012 21:13 #17

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there are count­less peo­ple in mem­ber states mak­ing use of the EU leg­is­la­tion, you could bring a court case against your own gov­ern­ment and have it viewed by impar­tial judges

What makes you think they will be impartial? Who are they answerable to?

:roll: Who put them there?
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Re: The European Union 23 Aug 2012 21:26 #18

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diamondgeezer wrote:
there are count­less peo­ple in mem­ber states mak­ing use of the EU leg­is­la­tion, you could bring a court case against your own gov­ern­ment and have it viewed by impar­tial judges

What makes you think they will be impartial? Who are they answerable to?

:roll: Who put them there?
Well according to you, not the British Crown, so you could go and raise a case against the Crown and have at least a fair chance, as opposed to trying that in England.

I could spend time on it and give you more positive potential of the European Union but I don't think it would make a difference to your opinion, here's a good analysis by Noam Chomsky i just found a bit earlier:
PRIMC: It seems there is a trend in the world of countries reducing their social support networks which is very unpopular. It has been happening in Slovenia as well. We hear that this is necessary in order to foster economic developement and that we are forced to do this because of globalization. It seems though that some areas of the world seem to be developing quite well even though they are radically increasing social spending. What part does globalisation play in this process if any and is it really unavoidable?

CHOMSKY: Many words of political discourse have two meanings: a literal meaning, and a doctrinal meaning that is used for political warfare. The term »globalization« is no exception.

In its literal meaning, »globalization« refers to international integration. Virtually everyone is in favor of globalization in this sense. Its most active and committed proponents are those who meet in the annual World Social Forum, and the associated regional and local social forums all over the world. They are called »anti-globalization,« which means that they oppose globalization in the doctrinal sense: a specific form of international economic integration designed by multinational corporations and the powerful states that cater to them, and of course designed in the interests of the designers. This form of »globalization« involves a mixture of liberalization and protectionism, and many measures that have little to do with trade in any meaningful sense, though the term »trade« is often introduced to allow them to fall under World Trade Organization rules. Naturally, this form of »globalization« and the neoliberal doctrines in which it is couched call for weakening social support systems while increasing the power of what has properly been called »the conservative nanny state« that serves the interests of concentrations of economic power. Perhaps some ideologues actually delude themselves into believing that this has to do with economic development. It doesn't. For most it is probably just a device to increase their power and influence.
www.chomsky.info/interviews/20080910.htm

I'm personally a literal globalist, literally, globalization makes sense, people like Jacque Fresco would agree.
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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Re: The European Union 23 Aug 2012 21:45 #19

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Guevarista wrote:
diamondgeezer wrote:
there are count­less peo­ple in mem­ber states mak­ing use of the EU leg­is­la­tion, you could bring a court case against your own gov­ern­ment and have it viewed by impar­tial judges

What makes you think they will be impartial? Who are they answerable to?

:roll: Who put them there?
Well according to you, not the British Crown, so you could go and raise a case against the Crown and have at least a fair chance, as opposed to trying that in England.

I could spend time on it and give you more positive potential of the European Union but I don't think it would make a difference to your opinion, here's a good analysis by Noam Chomsky i just found a bit earlier:
PRIMC: It seems there is a trend in the world of countries reducing their social support networks which is very unpopular. It has been happening in Slovenia as well. We hear that this is necessary in order to foster economic developement and that we are forced to do this because of globalization. It seems though that some areas of the world seem to be developing quite well even though they are radically increasing social spending. What part does globalisation play in this process if any and is it really unavoidable?

CHOMSKY: Many words of political discourse have two meanings: a literal meaning, and a doctrinal meaning that is used for political warfare. The term »globalization« is no exception.

In its literal meaning, »globalization« refers to international integration. Virtually everyone is in favor of globalization in this sense. Its most active and committed proponents are those who meet in the annual World Social Forum, and the associated regional and local social forums all over the world. They are called »anti-globalization,« which means that they oppose globalization in the doctrinal sense: a specific form of international economic integration designed by multinational corporations and the powerful states that cater to them, and of course designed in the interests of the designers. This form of »globalization« involves a mixture of liberalization and protectionism, and many measures that have little to do with trade in any meaningful sense, though the term »trade« is often introduced to allow them to fall under World Trade Organization rules. Naturally, this form of »globalization« and the neoliberal doctrines in which it is couched call for weakening social support systems while increasing the power of what has properly been called »the conservative nanny state« that serves the interests of concentrations of economic power. Perhaps some ideologues actually delude themselves into believing that this has to do with economic development. It doesn't. For most it is probably just a device to increase their power and influence.
www.chomsky.info/interviews/20080910.htm

I'm personally a literal globalist, literally, globalization makes sense, people like Jacque Fresco would agree.

Fresco is a globalist in the sense that he is against all nation states and authority of a few over the many.
He is also totally against money altogether which kind of sets him against the 'globalists' who are commonly defined in the MSM as being big business interests. The men who own this big corporate entities have no interest in the affairs of nation states politics because they already own and control the supply of money.
Chomsky is nothing compared to Fresco, that might upset a few people but it's the hard truth.

You're nothing like Fresco if you support government. One nation state, one government and one currency is still an abomination just as much as just shy of 200 governments and nation states and currencies is an abomination.

I do not trust unelected europrats anymore than I trust a royal pain in the butthole.
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Re: The European Union 23 Aug 2012 21:58 #20

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Guevarista wrote:
diamondgeezer wrote:
there are count­less peo­ple in mem­ber states mak­ing use of the EU leg­is­la­tion, you could bring a court case against your own gov­ern­ment and have it viewed by impar­tial judges

What makes you think they will be impartial? Who are they answerable to?

:roll: Who put them there?
Well according to you, not the British Crown, so you could go and raise a case against the Crown and have at least a fair chance, as opposed to trying that in England.

I doubt you'd have much success even raising (let alone winning) a case against the Crown either in this country or in the so-called European Court of Justice.

As it stands however, the Crown has little actual power...
Queen Elizabeth II today the Sovereign has an essentially ceremonial role restricted in exercise of power by convention and public opinion. However the monarch does continue to exercise three essential rights: the right to be consulted, the right to advise and the right to warn.

...and yet you just try raising a case against ole Herman in ANY court... :roll:

Tumblr M4p6vlY3MK1qa5a9k

Herman Achille Van Rompuy (pronounced [ˈɦɛɾmɑn vɑn ˈɾɔmpœy], born 31 October 1947) is the first long-term, full-time President of the European Council (until the Treaty of Lisbon, the position had rotated among the prime ministers of the member states for six months each, since when they have chosen a President of their meetings for a 2½ year period, renewable once). This is a position appointed by the European Council. A Belgian politician of the Christian Democratic and Flemish party, Van Rompuy served as the 49th prime minister of Belgium from 30 December 2008 until his predecessor (Yves Leterme) succeeded him on 25 November 2009. He has the Grand Cordon of the Order of Leopold.
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Last Edit: 23 Aug 2012 22:02 by diamondgeezer.
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